Full transcript: "Just a human being," says the Dalai Lama in Bodh Gaya

2012. január 11. /ndtv.com/TibetPress

Bodh Gaya: On a special episode of The Buck Stops Here, from the Kalachakra at Bodh Gaya, speaking to NDTV's Barkha Dutt, the Dalai Lama says he is just human, a Buddhist, a Tibetan.

Here's the full transcript of the Dalai Lama's interview to NDTV:

NDTV: Your Holiness, it's always such a pleasure to meet you, but especially a pleasure this time to meet you here in Bodh Gaya in the midst of the Kalachakra initiation. I want to ask you, it's been now a year when you decided to be a spiritual leader and not a political leader. So this is a different Kaal-chakra in that sense for you, because you've come in as a spiritual leader and not a political leader. How has this year gone by since you took that decision?

The Dalai Lama: Actually, not much differences. Same Dalai Lama.

NDTV: Same Dalai Lama?

The Dalai Lama: Whatever you see, I came here, as a Dalai Lama, as a Buddhist monk. The political responsibility, like this time in March. Anniversary, these things, then more political sort of nature. Otherwise the same. Most of my activities, actually, I'm always telling, even in the past, before, when I was carrying the political responsibility, almost, I think 60-70-80 percent of my time, my energy stands on spiritual feet. Okay. But now, for this decision, why is I to get, philosophical view now, my political philosophical view? The world naturally belongs to humanity, about now, seven billion human beings. And country belongs to the people, not religious leaders or kings or queens or presidents like that. So then, the best way to rule or to govern people, by people...the best system is the democratic system. That I believe. Since my childhood, I noticed the pattern of the old, sort of, governing system. It's too much, sort of, power in few individual's hands. So I saw, a lot of sort of drawbacks. I had sort of, quite often heard gossip from my close friends, those sweepers from Potala and Pulinga, they are very innocent and quite frank.

NDTV: And they told you?

The Dalai Lama: And when I asked some officials, they're little bit, sort of, cautious. They find it little difficult to complain, reasons like that. Then what of the sweepers, you see, no such hesitation. They bring all of this negative information or report like that, news. So then, soon after I took the political responsibility, I set up reform committee. Already it's started some reforms but not very successful. Then after '59, outside Tibet, we became refugees but we have our own organisation there. So now that, and once I start work for democratization. Then, step by step, 2001 we already achieved a little political leadership. Since then, my position is a semi-retired position.

NDTV: Semi-retired?

The Dalai Lama: Yes. At that time, last 10 years.

NDTV: But that's not how the world sees you. That's not how your people, that's not how the world sees you.

The Dalai Lama: They don't know much you see. But actually, mine is a semi-retired position. All major decisions are in the hands of the elected political leadership, not my hand. And then, I'm acting like Senior Adviser, like that. Now, ten years past, I have no direct sort of, what should I say, control. It's entirely up to the elected person. Ten years, it's a very sort of efficient way, well. Now, ten years past, now this time last year, is when we start election. People, you know, very much, Tibetan refugee community outside, very, very enthusiastic. It seems that they really have, you know, become quite mature about this democratic, sort of practice. And then, also, at that time, three candidates come, they were all good. I know all of them. And then this one, youngest, born in this country.

NDTV: Lobsang Sangay...

The Dalai Lama: Yes, Lobsang Sangay, born in this country, educated in India, basics of education, first went to Tibetan school and then joined one Delhi University. Then further sort of education, at Harvard University. Young, energetic, thoroughly, modern educated. Very good. So then, I thought, now this is the right time now, hand it over, hand over my political authority to him. I received this political responsibility in 1950, I think.

NDTV: When you were 15 years old, you were 15 years old.

The Dalai Lama: Yes, 15-16 like that.

NDTV: And now, 61-62?

The Dalai Lama: Yes, I received the transfer, the political sort of responsibility from our Regent, of course, also my tutor, wonderful Lama, but frankly speaking no modern education. Even experienced how to administer, how to control, very wonderful spiritual person. So naturally, not much knowledge, not much experience. But you see I received the transfer from him. After 60 years, my age is 76, exactly 60 years I took the responsibility, now I fully hand it over to ordinary Tibetan, as I mentioned, thoroughly modern educated sort of person, elected person, I feel very, very happy. Great honour to hand it over, sort of all my political authority. Resumed political authority to him. I really carry this voluntarily, happily, proudly, and I really feel, you see this decision, not only fully promotes democratic system within our community but also I feel I made some sort of service to the past since 15th Dalai Lama took political power. So, my voluntarily sort of handing over ended almost four centuries old tradition. Dalai Lama had both, now that I voluntarily ended. So I feel that also in some this is serving to legitimate legacy of past Dalai Lama.

NDTV: But, but while democracy is a beautiful thing and you have done it voluntarily, it's been a difficult year in Tibet. There have been the immolations. It's a difficult year. The world is still looking to you as Dalai Lama. They don't want you to give up this political role. How do you deal with the expectations of your people?

The Dalai Lama: I've already been describing in the last several decades, the Tibetan problem is the issue of a nation. So they should carry full responsibility, they should not rely on one individual person. So sometimes now, my own sort of experience, sometimes in the past, when I was touring different parts of the world, sometimes I feel, what's happening now, in India or in Dharamshala. Now after I handed over, after that I visited different areas. I feel they take care of themselves, they look after themselves. So, I feel, what should I say, much happier, much calmer. And then also one another secret. The day I officially handed over, that night, very unusual sound sleep.

NDTV: You slept well that night?

The Dalai Lama: Oh very, very unusual. Good dreams, very, very sound sleep. So that means, deep inside, I think I relieved some kind of sort of tightness or something like that. And anyway, still I'm here. Still I'm Dalai Lama. I'm Tibetan. This body, Tibetan body. Till this body remains there, I also have a sort of moral responsibility like every person in Tibet. That's one thing. Then also, I also want to see myself as a free spokesman for the Tibetan people and generally all Tibetans in free country. Everybody should carry the wishes of Tibetan people inside Tibet. We're not master. We're demanding on them? No. Simply, you see, there if they have the freedom, express what they really want, what they really feel, then you see, no reason, you see we are carrying these activities. But since they have no freedom, tight control, everything, tight control year by year, worse, worse, worse, more serious, more serious. That's why these sort of unfortunate things happen. So it is our responsibility, including myself, and all Tibetan refugee communities and including our supporters, we are now acting on behalf of these people. So that till my death, I involve.

NDTV: Some people, your followers wanted you to take on a ceremonial role, like the Queen of England for example. You didn't want that, you said you'd feel like a puppet.

The Dalai Lama: Oh yes.

NDTV: Did you consider at all, a ceremonial political role for yourself?

The Dalai Lama: No use.

NDTV: No use?

The Dalai Lama: My basic nature, I don't like, sort of formality. I don't like. I've grown up with too much formality. When I was in Potala, on throne, there was a throne, I had to sit down like statue. Too much formality, so therefore, because I've grown up that way, so, as soon as I came to India, I really feel some kind of liberation. No longer formality, no longer sort of these things. So I can act as a human being, as a Buddhist monk. Whenever I meet people, no barrier, nothing. So I don't like, you see, some ceremonial figure.

NDTV: You said, you didn't want your speeches written for you like the Queen.

The Dalai Lama: I don't.

NDTV: But Your Holiness, when you look at what's happening inside Tibet, it's been a very difficult year, because as I said there have been these immolations. And you have even prayed for the memory of those people who killed themselves, the monks, this time during the Kaal-chakara. Where do you reconcile what is happening, the immolations and the suicides with the basic principle of non-violence that your cause and your philosophy has always espoused? Where do you stand, philosophically, on these immolations?

The Dalai Lama: Now basically, the suicides are also a kind of violence. Now you see, again it depends on many other factors. Basically, violence and non-violence ultimately depend on a kind of motivation and purpose. So it's difficult to sort of judge these individuals, their motivation. If the motivation is anger, hatred, like that, then negative. If the motivation, some different thing, then more positive motivation, then more difficult to judge like that. So anyway too much sensitive political issue. So I must demonstrate as a retired person.

NDTV: No, but as a spiritual leader, as somebody your people look up to? I'm sure it pains you to see these images of the monks immolating themselves. But would you ask them not to or do you understand why they have been driven to this point?

The Dalai Lama: People inside Tibet are our boss. Whenever I meet the Tibetan refugee, not refugee, Tibetans ...

NDTV: From inside Tibet.

The Dalai Lama: ... coming as pilgrims or like that. I always describe them, they are our boss. So decision is in their hands not my hand. If I try to control them, then my explanation as a boss, is a hypocrisy. Morally, whatever decision up to them. But in anyway, recently, this is some people you see ask me these things, then I express. Now, the Chinese government, they have the responsibility, we are refugees, you see, we have no responsibility. But some Chinese officials, they point out, they put the blame on us. So immediately, I respond, please come here, investigate thoroughly, whether we started these works or not. Like in 2008, the Prime Minister Jiabao himself accused me, that all the clashes, we started them. Immediately, I also expressed, please, some officials come and international media, come. Look, at all the files, all the records of my speech, please look. So this time also, you see, not death, no. But then, the real sort of responsibility is on them. Now time has come, they must, sort of look at what's the real causes. They say lot of money, give them, lot of construction, lot of sort of development, but still such things happen. And also Chinese government compel to increasing soldiers, security personnel and at every corner of the street, some cameras, even in classrooms some cameras. Why? Now, 60 years they utilised various methods but failed. Now they must think what is wrong, what are the real causes? That is important. I already have expressed that 1.3 billion Chinese people have every right to know the reality. Once they know the reality, the 1.3 billion Chinese people also have the ability to judge what is right what is wrong. So government heavily puts censorship just stops the information, it's actually immoral. How awful, they're cheating their own people. Now let people know how's the reality. And the government also must carry thorough investigation. One, I think the high party secretary, I think, Kumdun, I think two years ago, I think she once expressed. Now the government, the central party, should carry review of their policy regarding so-called minority, different nationality persons, sort of, different ethnic groups policy. Actually you see, I think article or something, she expressed, that's very right. I'm quite sure if Hu Yung here today, or Tao Tsui Yung here, I think they will carry, thorough research, what is the real causes. So accordingly they may act. So, now here, the simple thing is, people thought of China as the most populated nation, very important nation. Now their policy must be a realistic policy, not just ideas, and just suppression. That's absolutely wrong. Long run, very harmful, for their own sort-of image, for their own successful future, like that.

NDTV: Over here, you have met this time, with pilgrims who came from inside Tibet. You've also met with people who've come from the People's Republic of China. They're in fact sitting behind us. Have you got a chance to talk a little bit with them? What is the sense that you're getting, especially from meeting the Chinese?

The Dalai Lama: Of course, here, non-political nature.

NDTV: Yes, spiritual.

The Dalai Lama: And also I think quite sure, if people know that Dalai Lama will carry some kind of political activities in Bodh Gaya, this number of people may not come.

NDTV: Why do you say that? Why? Because people still look up to you, and ...

The Dalai Lama: Now here, Dalai Lama carrying some kind of spiritual, important spiritual sort of ceremony or activities. So many people come. So if I took this opportunity to tell more political issues, if I myself politicize this sort of event, it's wrong. So, when I met the Tibetan, who come from Tibet, several thousand here, I greet them, then, our culture, our spirituality very rich, very sort of useful. So it is very important to study. To get full of knowledge about what's our spirituality. Then also there's the Chinese brothers, sisters, also I told them, same rule. Then also they're from Himalayan range people, I also met them and talked like that. So like that, so these Chinese from mainland China, maybe one or two maybe different, but I think over thousand, over thousand, very, very sort of spiritual minded persons. Most of these Chinese come from mainland China, when I met, now it is every week some Chinese from mainland China always come. Whenever we met, in many cases, tears.

NDTV: Crying?

The Dalai Lama: Crying. You know, they sort of express that please don't forget we Chinese Buddhists in mainland China. So sometimes, I myself, also feel very sad. There are some Tibetans also you see, they ask me, express, please Sir, come very soon to Tibet. Then I respond, this is not a question of whether I have the desire to return or not. Not this one. The Chinese government, I told them, as soon as the Chinese government creates some positive signal, I'm ready to go there. I go there, like that. So in a way very much emotion, very much emotion. I also used to feel very, very touched.

NDTV: But you know how everything gets politicised, even if, no-one wants it to be. For example, you were going to address a Buddhist conference in Delhi. You remember? And you did. And China did not want you to address that conference in Delhi, and the boundary talks between India and China were called off because India refused to accept that condition. So whether you like it or not, Your Holiness, you are in the middle of politics between China and India, over the issue of Tibet, so when that happened, how did you deal with it?

The Dalai Lama: That's not my creation, that's the Chinese creation. So in a way good. The Chinese government very, very helpful to get more propaganda about Dalai Lama's activities. But these things, now, quite routine now. I don't care, you see. I don't usually think these things. I carry my own sort of activities, my own sort of work with sincere motivation as a Buddhist monk, as a follower of Buddha. That's all. And whatever these other people consider me as demon, some people consider me as living Buddha, some people consider me as scientist, some people consider me as the Dalai Lama. Doesn't matter, whatever they feel.

NDTV: What do you consider yourself to be?

The Dalai Lama: Just a human being. Firstly, I'm just a human being. We're same, exactly, mentally, emotionally, sort of physically. We are same. All seven billion human beings, same. Quite simple reason. We born same way, we live, we die the same way and each day want more happy life. Everyone, you see same. Everyone have same rights. Then second level, I'm Buddhist. I'm Buddhist monk. Like many others are the believer, I also accept certain deeper values. Then third, I'm Tibetan. Just like that.

NDTV: You had once told me that you don't want to be considered as a God-man by anybody. You don't see yourself as that.

The Dalai Lama: Yes, that's what I mentioned earlier yes. I'm human being.

NDTV: A naughty human being. You're very naughty.

The Dalai Lama: My very close sort of friend, Nobel Laureate Mr Tutu quite often used to describe me as the mischievous Dalai Lama.

NDTV: You've just been conferred the Mahatma Gandhi Prize, by Gandhi's granddaughter who came from Africa. Did that take away from, perhaps, the very unfortunate incident where you were not granted a visa by South Africa? Did that pain you? I mean, this was Nelson Mandela's country and they stopped you from coming.

The Dalai Lama: It was in a way, little bit, sort of sad, but okay, no problem. In fact, their refuse of sort of visa, seems to be causing more sort of publicity, so good. But at the time you see, at that time, through television video, I had a very wonderful conversation with my long-time respected friend or elder spiritual brother Bishop Tutu. Wonderful. No problem.

NDTV: When I met you on your 75th birthday in Dharamshala, you told me that you were still optimistic that you would go back home one day. You're also a very pragmatic leader, you're a practical man. Do you really believe in your lifetime ...

The Dalai Lama: Oh yes.

NDTV: You still think it's possible given how it's all going?

The Dalai Lama: Oh yes, of course. Since our last meeting a lot of change.

NDTV: What is the change?

The Dalai Lama: One change also, the one factor is the Tibetan spirit inside Tibet, very strong. Even you see young children, now Tibetan spirit very, very strong. And I think more than 99 per cent, Tibetan Communist party member, Communist and also you see carrying some sort of, what do you say, some sort of ranks in military field as well as civilian field. 99 per cent they consider number one is Tibetan. Tibetans are right. Like that. It's very strong. Then other hand, you know Chinese, sort of intelligence writers and many retired Chinese officials, now as time passes, they get better awareness about the very nature of the problem. So many of them, some, at least, I think a few hundred, I met everyone, showing solidarity. Full support at our middle at what our middle wave approach and they full you know, sort of, espouse it, about you see, Tibetan strict non-violent principles. Then also, I saw a number of articles in Chinese language written by Chinese, wrote by Chinese. Over thousands fully support our sort of stand and are very, very critical about their government policy. And recently Wen Jiabao, the Prime Minister, as the Prime Minister, he on quite a number of occasions, he expressed China needs political reform. And some extent, even to such extent he mentioned that China needs Western style of democracy. So the other day I met some of my Chinese, some Chinese, I just jovially told them if your own Prime Minister, you see, mentioned that, if you do not agree with his view, then Prime Minister should dismissed. If you agree that, then must implement Prime Minister's wish. I mentioned to some Chinese.

NDTV: But you're not losing hope.

The Dalai Lama: No, no, so therefore, you see, things are changing positively in China proper. Now there are more and more sort of positive indications. The existing present system do not work. I mean, didn't work. So what are the problems? Some, sooner or later, they have to find, a more realistic sort of policy. And they have to accept the reality, must face the reality. You see, they as things have been stated, setting truth from fact, it is very scientifically. So fact must be fact, not artificial fact.

NDTV: The Chinese believe that you're giving up your political role as a trick. They say it's a trick. And you said maybe jokingly or seriously that, just like you have stepped down, that maybe some of them should consider retiring too. You said that some of the Chinese communists should also consider retiring. You think that will ever happen?

The Dalai Lama: Some occasions I just joke, jokingly express. The Chinese communists since they took power, now 60 years passed, so now a lot of sort of, what to say, what to say, what to say, degenerate, the Marxist sort of ideology, much degenerated. So now, time come, they also should think about retirement with grace, like me.

NDTV: A lot depends on who your successor will be because now the Chinese also want to appoint or annoint or find the next Dalai Lama. So have you made up your mind about that at all or will it happen in your lifetime?

The Dalai Lama: No hurry.

NDTV: No hurry? Why no hurry?

The Dalai Lama: Formally, I sort of made one statement formally, recent months. And I made it clear. When my age around now, over 80-85 like that, then I will discuss. Recently, I discussed with all top spiritual leaders, Tibetan spiritual leaders, as we pass several years, as we occasionally meeting, there is some discussing. This time also we met and then, then finally, they all agree, for the moment there is no hurry. So another 10 years, wait. Then, I will again discuss with them, so final decision, then we'll take. So, like that. But in anyway, as early as 69, one of my sort of statement, I stated, the very institution of Dalai Lama should continue or not, up to Tibetan people. So still I believe that.

NDTV: You still believe that?

The Dalai Lama: Oh yes, ultimately Tibetan people. They should sort of decide. Like that. So, no hurry.

NDTV: You also said, I remember, that the next Dalai Lama can also be a woman.

The Dalai Lama: Yes

NDTV: Do you think that could ever happen?

The Dalai Lama: I, you see, this is not just a joke or some sort of ...

NDTV: This is serious.

The Dalai Lama: This is serious. Because you know among humanity, in very, very ancient times male, female equal. Everybody is equal, no concept of leader. Then eventually population increased, then you see land cultivation, these things. Then eventually some quarrels or some injustice is happening, so the concept of leadership you see come. At that time, no role of education. So in order to become leader the physical strength, like other animals. Then eventually education developed. Then education bring more equality, male-female.  But still, we had some kind of you know, what do you say, habit, the male dominance. Now, modern education, general sort, also the education about brain development, wonderful. Highly developed but lacking education about warm-heartedness. One way, we're heavily relying on religion. That also we cannot cover universally everything. Universally. So the education alone should include education about warm-heartedness. Whether it's a believer or non-believer, education for everybody. Similarly education for warm-heartedness, should be for everyone, should cover everyone. So that's India's sort of tradition, secular education, secular sort of education in a secular way, to educate warm-heartedness. So now, here, therefore, now, time come, must make every effort for promotion of human compassion, human affection. In that respect, female, biologically more sort-of sensitivity about other's pain. Therefore a time where we need special effort for promotion of human compassion. Here, now female should take more responsibility in that field. So with that connection, there's some sort of spiritual leader, it's a female. In Tibetan tradition, one sort of high rung in the nation, I think for the last, I think 6-700 years, always it's a female. Yeah, so, as such, a female Dalai Lama is more effective, more useful to promotion of human value then, it should be female.

NDTV: Let me ask you in the end, are you a little concerned, because you're saying that you're hopeful, that China is exerting a kind of economic influence with the world, where the sheer economic muscle that they enjoy is diminishing global support for the Tibetan cause? For example, are you disappointed with how Washington, and the Obama government has been responding in the last few years to you, to your campaign? Are you disappointed?

The Dalai Lama: No, no, no, no, no. Of course, obviously, economy, very important. So therefore every government, how do you say, is showing, I mean, everybody is trying to maintain close relation, good relation with People's Republic of China. It's good, there's no problem. But meantime, large Tibetan issue, and some other Human Rights issues in China proper. All these fields, and many sensible governments really you see, take, sort of make effort. Many times, you see, they met counterpart of Chinese, sometimes publically, sometimes behind scene. And particularly United States, really you see, I know, a few former Presidents, all of them very, very supportive. And President Obama also wonderful, very good. So, I'm quite satisfied. Then of course the real crux is how much they can do? That's the, you see, like Palestine problem. Many nations really showing serious concern. But you see, on the spot, you see, little difficult. Effective, sort of, change, is quite difficult. Isn't it? So now, you see both sides, you see strength, firm, tough, then difficult. So they, in today's world, now that tough stand won't solve the problem. Must sort of, what do you say, in the spirit of reconciliation, must be you know, a spirit of dialogue and what do you say fifty-fifty. One side victory, other side- defeat it's impossible.

NDTV: Does the Dalai Lama have any vices? You're a Holy man, do you think you have any regrets or any faults that you don't like about yourself? Is there anything that you don't like?  I remember once you told me, that you struggled with whether you should eat meat or not. So do you have any regrets, any faults that you see in yourself on a human note?

The Dalai Lama: If I sort of consider myself as a God, then this question is irrelevant.

NDTV: But you don't consider yourself as a God?

The Dalai Lama: But, but, but I told you I'm human being so naturally, you should know, you should understand. So now, these days, I carry from Dharmshala, very thick clothes. So when I reach here, too hot.

NDTV: Too cold?

The Dalai Lama: No

NDTV: Too hot?

The Dalai Lama: One period, very hot. One period quite cold. So sometimes, you know, I feel pity. I should carry some thinner wear, some thinner clothes like that. So that also, little mistake. But no problem.

NDTV: But no serious regrets? One last question. You're on Twitter, but you've never used a computer.

The Dalai Lama: I don't know.

NDTV: You don't know how to? Are you planning to?

The Dalai Lama: I'm very much interest here, and also you see, I think this is because of lack of interest. So I've never sort of made a special effort. So I don't care. The fifth Dalai Lama, you see, in his autobiography, he mentioned, he didn't pay much about grammar or these things. Because he felt that as a Dalai Lama, he will anyway find some good writer there. So he didn't pay much sort of attention. He mentioned, so me too, in anyway, in such things. In any case, I will find someone, who can do that. So it is better, my sort of brain and time spent on spiritual field and also the circular ethics, in that field I really see, almost I think, I see my time in world, and only my own sort of meditation. As I mentioned earlier, each day I start. Now these days, in daytime, there's a lot of sort of time also being consumed, so these days I got up 2 'o' clock in the morning.

NDTV: 2 'o'clock in the morning.

The Dalai Lama: 2 'o' clock, and up to six, some major portion of life, meditations and these things should complete. Like that. Like that. So that's my really interest. Other things I really don't have much interest.

NDTV: Lovely talking to you, pleasure as always. Thank you.

The Dalai Lama: Thank you.